Junius Worth
David Kerr
Charlie Nehl
gawlowskib
Andrew Martin
Jonathan C. Mitchell
johnczech
Daniel Marino
Michael Schwartze
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Spencer Schneier
William J. Tasker
I will be in the minority here, and many will disagree with my sentiments and theories, but I believe pitch counts are a total farce. I believe Tommy John surgeries are performed when two weeks of rest would be a sufficient alternative.
Pitch counts were created by greedy agents who want their meal tickets to pitch as few innings as possible. What if I told you that I believe pitch counts could actually harm a pitcher and cause the needless surgeries? Do I have medical records to justify my belief? No, I do not. Am I a doctor? No, and I don’t even play one on TV. However, I have questions that I will ask for those of you who disagree with my theory.
1) Why is it that catchers don’t need reconstructive arm surgery? Granted, a catcher doesn’t wind up and throw the ball at top speed, but between warm up pitches and game day pitches, a catcher will throw a ball about 200 times a game. If he catches five games a week, that is 1,000 throws a week, excluding throws to bases.
2) Why did pitchers of the old days not have arm injuries at the alarming rate that they occur today? There is a very good chance that they did have arm issues, but technology did not reveal those issues. The point here, is that if they did have arm issues, THEY PITCHED THROUGH IT! Surgery was an absolute last option. Tom Seaver had 231 complete games in his career. Bob Gibson had 255 CG and averaged 17 a season. From 1968-1970 he averaged 305 innings, and he went 65-29 during that span. Steve Carlton had 254 CG in his career. The year he pitched 346 innings, he went 27-10. Juan Marichal pitched 321 innings in 1963 and went 25-8. The next season, he won 21 games despite the heavy workload from the previous season. In 1968, he pitched 325 innings while winning 26 games. The next season, he won 21 games.
Fergie Jenkins had four straight 300 inning seasons. He won 20 games all four seasons, and the following year he won 20 as well. And there are many others who have similar stats/seasons. Why did they not suffer serious arm injuries? By comparison, Pedro Martinez pitched 18 years and had 46 CG. In 1997/98 Martinez pitched 475 innings combined, the biggest two year innings total of his career. The next season, he went 23-4. Pedro’s injuries started to occur as pitch counts became more prevalent and his workload was cut back.
3) If you went to the gym, and worked out as hard as you could every fifth day, would you be more likely or less likely to sustain an injury than if you worked out hard every other day? The more you work out, the more your body gets used to the rigors and stress, thus avoiding muscle pulls and similar injuries.
4) When the Washington Nationals drafted Stephen Strasburg, they put all sorts of restrictions on his pitch counts. The result: reconstructive surgery. How do we know that the decrease in innings didn’t negatively impact Strasburg? They shut Strasburg down last season to avoid losing him for an extended period of time…and in the process, they DID lose him for an extended period of time. I fail to see the logic.
5) Why do NFL quarterbacks not suffer similar arm injuries? They’re even taking hits while throwing footballs all week long.
Unfortunately, pitch counts are here to stay. Tommy John surgeries are also here to stay. In the 60′s, neither was part of baseball, and pitchers thrived. Today, both are in existence, and it costs pitchers 18 months of their careers. So we’ll continue to see stars go down to arm injuries. We’ll continue to see team’s aces coming out of a 2-2 game in the seventh inning, and being relieved by the team’s 8th best pitcher on the staff. Thank goodness those of us who are old enough were able to see pitchers pitch. Can you imagine Juan Marichal coming out of a tie game in the sixth inning in favor of Ron Herbel on a regular basis?
Filed under: Digging Deep - Analysis Tagged: | Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, Juan Marichal, Pedro Martinez, Pitch Counts, Ron Herbel, Stephen Strasburg, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Tommy John
Actually, pitchers had high incidences of arm injuries before Tommy John surgery. They were called different things like “sore” or “dead” arm. If you tear that tendon, no amount of rest is going to make you be able to pitch well or comfortably.
Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
There will always be freaks of nature–guys with rubber arms who can go out and toss 400 innings a year if allowed. But they are just that–freaks of nature. They are far too few and far between to build an entire staff of them. Ever. Now… in the old, old days, the mound was higher and closer to the plate, the ball was dead, hitters were (mostly) out of shape and spitballs and all manor of things were legal. Since then, its been a constant back and forth. When the pitchers advance,
the rules are changed to benefit the hitters (lowering the mound, for example). When the hitters advance, the rules are changed to benefit the pitchers. In many ways, this isn’t even the same game that was played in the “good old days”. Baseball favors offense and its a lot easier to disadvantage the pitcher. So, as batters have gotten better through the years (and they have–stronger, faster, better eyes and quicker hands), pitchers have had to work their arms even harder. The fastballs, uniformly across the board, are faster–not because arms are better built to handle the strain, but because, of necessity, pitchers are putting more into each pitch. Even worse for the arm are the wide assortment of curves, sliders, scroogies, etc., that starting pitchers must throw today and more often. Those put more of a strain on the arm than fastballs do. Back in the day, you had a straight up fastball and a change-up with very little movement. Changing speeds and location was all you needed to keep hitters off balance. The hitters are better today. You need “movement”. It also doesn’t help that pitchers are forced to be much more competitive much younger today. No high school kid should ever throw a curve. But they do. That’s extra strain the older pitchers didn’t have. We want ‘em major league ready at 20 or 21 today. That almost never happened in the old days. And what you don’t seem to remember from the old days was how many brilliant pitchers–thousands of them–had their arms pretty much fall off before they ever reached The Show. And what you probably never paid any attention to was how many who were good enough to reach the show had their careers cut short and ended due to “arm trouble”.
As to why pitchers are on pitch counts today, it has nothing to do with greedy agents. Ballclubs will happily impart the truth, if you want to hear it. The money is way, way bigger and the investment in players far, far greater. They are protecting their investment. That is all. In “the old days”, if the Yankees had a $5,000 a year arm go down, you just bring in another one. Heck, the Yankees had about 100 farm teams at one point (not counting the A’s) and nobody made a whole lot of money, really. If Stephen Strasburg goes down–for good–you’ve just lost a huge investment. And, with expansion as well, where you gonna find another arm like that? If there were ANY indication–any at all–that pitch counts could be harmful in any way, it would be the “greedy agents” fighting against them. The evidence that exists says otherwise.
As for relief pitchers, they always existed. You seem to have fallen asleep in the later innings. But the age of hyper specialization was also brought about by the same factors–the increase in the sheer athleticism of players, the amount of money involved, expansion, and the (overall) competitive balance (yeah, the big market teams still have an edge, but its not like it was before the draft when the Yankees could sleepwalk over the Browns or Senators and A’s and most of the rest of the league). In this day and age, if I’ve got a guy who can OWN the other team for one inning, why would I ask my tired starter to go out and face the fresh hitters the other side is bringing off the bench? You think Mariano Rivera was the eighth best pitcher on those Championship Yankee teams? I’d say you’re probably the only person who would think that. Third or fourth best at worst. Possibly their best. The eighth best pitcher on most any staff NEVER comes into a close game (unless its extra innings and you’re out of alternatives). Just mop up in blow outs.
Your other “points” are just too silly. A catcher’s throwing motion is NOTHING like a pitcher’s. Except maybe the throw to second. And they do that, what, 2 or 3 times a game? Tops? The catchers, you will note, all have trouble with their knees and backs. And always have. And always will.
Quarterbacks? LOL. What’s the record for pass attempts in a game? 70? And that kind of total is a very recent development. Why, “in the old days”, it was a running game. And, even now, many of those passes are little dink drop offs. There are no curveballs, sliders, or screwballs in football–all of which are completely unnatural to the human arm. It’s really mostly like throwing eephus pitches all day, if anything. And need we really mention all the quarterbacks who end up having arm surgery? Carson Palmer, Jake Delhomme…Peyton Manning. Though, again, with quarterbacks, the knees tend to go first.
Speaking of football, your mindset is like someone saying “what’s wrong with all these football players sitting out with concussions? Shake it off and get back in there like the players did in my day.” Which would totally ignore both how much faster and harder the game is played today AND the fact that many of those “old time” players died of brain injuries and such at very young ages. Just because you stopped following them after they stopped playing doesn’t mean they suffered no consequences. We know more, now. That’s not a bad thing.
I think you’ve cherrypicked your memories. For every Bob Gibson, there were dozens of David Clydes and hundreds of Les Rohrs and John Glasses (Look him up. He was better than Nolan Ryan. Just not as fortunate.). And people thinking like you–Billy Martin for one–ruined an awful lot of really good arms. Look what Tampa Bay did to Kazmir. I will say I do think a lot could be learned from some of the old conditioning techniques. Nearly every pitcher that came up on Rube Walker’s staff in the 60s had incredible arm strength and stamina. I dounbt it would hurt to drop the arm into a barrel of brine from time to time. But perhaps that’s just me cherrypicking MY memories.